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	<title>Comments on: Pentecostal Sacraments?</title>
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		<title>By: Jacob Dodson</title>
		<link>http://renewaldynamics.com/2010/09/09/pentecostal-sacraments/comment-page-1/#comment-2224</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Dodson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Coulter, I really enjoyed reading your post on Daniel Tomberlin&#039;s book. It captured my attention because in reading various sources outside the Pentecostal/charismatic traditions, my thinking has been stretched in relation to the sacraments (including their place in worship and ecclesiology). I grew up in a Vineyard church and really appreciated the times of worship there when people would come forward for prayer and linger, seeking to abide in the presence of the Spirit. The emotions I felt from those times (including intimate musical worship times too) have remained with me through my faith journey and I find myself returning to them from time to time. The interesting thing that I have discovered though is that in visiting other churches, I have experienced very similar (if not the same type of) emotions in their services. For example, at a local Roman Catholic parish, after the assembly of believers has gone forward to receive the Eucharist, the priest often encourages them to sit in silence for several minutes. During that time, on several occasions I have felt Christ’s presence very strongly through the Spirit (or at least that is what I discerned it to be) just as I had in worship and prayer times at the Vineyard. What is the continuity between these experiences? It certainly is not the form of worship (liturgical vs. contemporary). It seems to me that the continuity is rooted in the Spirit&#039;s work (I suppose Tomberlin, following Palamas, might stress here the concept of the divine energies). The dimension of your post that drew me in the most is how the Spirit can be experienced in the sacraments (including the liturgy) and in time at the alter, which both foster human encounter with God. In addition, I wonder how more regular celebration of communion (the Christocentric act of worship that it is) and a more profound understanding of it can renew own spiritual journeys and our churches.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Coulter, I really enjoyed reading your post on Daniel Tomberlin&#8217;s book. It captured my attention because in reading various sources outside the Pentecostal/charismatic traditions, my thinking has been stretched in relation to the sacraments (including their place in worship and ecclesiology). I grew up in a Vineyard church and really appreciated the times of worship there when people would come forward for prayer and linger, seeking to abide in the presence of the Spirit. The emotions I felt from those times (including intimate musical worship times too) have remained with me through my faith journey and I find myself returning to them from time to time. The interesting thing that I have discovered though is that in visiting other churches, I have experienced very similar (if not the same type of) emotions in their services. For example, at a local Roman Catholic parish, after the assembly of believers has gone forward to receive the Eucharist, the priest often encourages them to sit in silence for several minutes. During that time, on several occasions I have felt Christ’s presence very strongly through the Spirit (or at least that is what I discerned it to be) just as I had in worship and prayer times at the Vineyard. What is the continuity between these experiences? It certainly is not the form of worship (liturgical vs. contemporary). It seems to me that the continuity is rooted in the Spirit&#8217;s work (I suppose Tomberlin, following Palamas, might stress here the concept of the divine energies). The dimension of your post that drew me in the most is how the Spirit can be experienced in the sacraments (including the liturgy) and in time at the alter, which both foster human encounter with God. In addition, I wonder how more regular celebration of communion (the Christocentric act of worship that it is) and a more profound understanding of it can renew own spiritual journeys and our churches.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale M. Coulter</title>
		<link>http://renewaldynamics.com/2010/09/09/pentecostal-sacraments/comment-page-1/#comment-2191</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale M. Coulter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renewaldynamics.com/?p=2478#comment-2191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wolfgang,

Thanks for the reflections. I do think you are correct about the need to &quot;drink from our own wells&quot; first. Dan attempts to place sacramentality within the larger framework of encounter, which I think is Pentecostal. As with other traditions before us, we have tended to shun all forms of sacramental mediation when speaking of encounter. Pentecostals prefer a direct and immediate encounter with God. And yet, as Dan&#039;s analysis correctly points out, Pentecostals have always embraced the mediation of grace through created realities. This is the tension he wishes to exploit.

Now, as to his use of Palamas to explain how created realities can be suffused with the divine presence, I think you have a point about whether such forms are &quot;up to the task.&quot; One thing I will say is that in general Pentecostals have all too readily adopted other perspectives in an uncritical manner that have actually been detrimental to Pentecostalism. So, again, your point is an important caution. You&#039;ll need to read Dan&#039;s book to determine whether you think he has done this with Palamas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolfgang,</p>
<p>Thanks for the reflections. I do think you are correct about the need to &#8220;drink from our own wells&#8221; first. Dan attempts to place sacramentality within the larger framework of encounter, which I think is Pentecostal. As with other traditions before us, we have tended to shun all forms of sacramental mediation when speaking of encounter. Pentecostals prefer a direct and immediate encounter with God. And yet, as Dan&#8217;s analysis correctly points out, Pentecostals have always embraced the mediation of grace through created realities. This is the tension he wishes to exploit.</p>
<p>Now, as to his use of Palamas to explain how created realities can be suffused with the divine presence, I think you have a point about whether such forms are &#8220;up to the task.&#8221; One thing I will say is that in general Pentecostals have all too readily adopted other perspectives in an uncritical manner that have actually been detrimental to Pentecostalism. So, again, your point is an important caution. You&#8217;ll need to read Dan&#8217;s book to determine whether you think he has done this with Palamas.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfgang Vondey</title>
		<link>http://renewaldynamics.com/2010/09/09/pentecostal-sacraments/comment-page-1/#comment-2190</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfgang Vondey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Sep 2010 21:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renewaldynamics.com/?p=2478#comment-2190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dale, thank you for bringing this book to our attention. This is indeed an important topic, not only for Pentecostals. Chris Green and I are reflecting on the importance of sacramentality for the Pentecostal worldview in an upcoming article in JPT. There needs to be more reflection and discussion on this issue. I wonder, judging from your description, how much this Pentecostal reflection is not still too indebted to the traditional (i.e., non-Pentecostal) view of the sacraments. While there is little &quot;wrong&quot; with those views, and they are indeed necessary for a Pentecostal reflection, such traditional perspectives tend to be ill-equipped for straight-forward application to Pentecostal practices. It seems to me that we need first a certain Pentecostal understanding of what sacramentality is before we can speak about sacraments. What I would want to avoid is that we simply add a view &quot;Pentecostal&quot; ordinances to the list as if the traditional idea of sacramental theology were simply accplicable to Pentecostalism. I look forward to reading this book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale, thank you for bringing this book to our attention. This is indeed an important topic, not only for Pentecostals. Chris Green and I are reflecting on the importance of sacramentality for the Pentecostal worldview in an upcoming article in JPT. There needs to be more reflection and discussion on this issue. I wonder, judging from your description, how much this Pentecostal reflection is not still too indebted to the traditional (i.e., non-Pentecostal) view of the sacraments. While there is little &#8220;wrong&#8221; with those views, and they are indeed necessary for a Pentecostal reflection, such traditional perspectives tend to be ill-equipped for straight-forward application to Pentecostal practices. It seems to me that we need first a certain Pentecostal understanding of what sacramentality is before we can speak about sacraments. What I would want to avoid is that we simply add a view &#8220;Pentecostal&#8221; ordinances to the list as if the traditional idea of sacramental theology were simply accplicable to Pentecostalism. I look forward to reading this book.</p>
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